My conversation with writer, dance historian and arts policy consultant Max Wyman who I knew when he was on the board of the Canada Council in the early 2000s. I met with Max on March 18, 2025 at his home in Lions Bay, British Columbia which sits on the unceded traditional territory of the Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), and xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam) Nations.
Max is the author of numerous books, including The Compassionate Imagination: How the Arts Are Central to a Functioning Democracy, which he will talk about in this episode. He’ll also talk about quite a provocative article, published on February 21, 2025 in The Tyee called To Save the Arts, Blow Up the Old Ways, which caught my attention, in part because it reminded of my letter to the arts community about the ecological crisis from October 2024.
Both of our postings ask what I think are fair but hard questions – in difficult times - about the future of the arts sector, and of Canadian culture writ large, so it’s all very timely. I asked Max to stick his neck out and elaborate upon his vision and actions, which he did with finesse and gusto.
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What if Canadian artists held the key to unlocking a stronger national identity and a more compassionate society? Max Wyman challenges the arts community to rise above despair and take bold action, envisioning a vibrant cultural landscape that celebrates unity and shared values.
Chapter Summary
00:00 The Crisis in the Arts Community
01:12 Introducing Max Wyman
02:30 The Call for Bold Action
04:16 Celebrating Canadian Identity
06:02 Reimagining Canadian Culture
08:31 The Power of Arts and Empathy
10:15 Integrating Arts with Policy Making
12:34 Addressing Environmental and Social Justice
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Behind the Story
Max Wyman, a seasoned writer and arts advocate, draws on his extensive experience to address the existential questions facing the Canadian arts community. His conversation highlights the importance of reimagining the sector’s role in fostering national pride, social understanding, and a compassionate approach to arts and cultural policymaking in an increasingly polarized world.
Note: This is an automated transcription that is provided for those who prefer to read this conversation and for documentation. It has been verified but is not 100% accurate (some names might not be quite right). Please contact me if you would like to quote from this transcript: claude@conscient.ca
[00:00:00 - 00:00:55] Max Wyman
There's been a real lack of positive action and response from the arts community to these existential questions that confront us. And I really wonder whether that's not because they're simply bewildered by what's been going on. They're terrified, most of them. A lot of the conversation that goes on that I'm aware of has to do with the precariousness of existence for the artist. There is no there's no solid ground for them to work on when there's no money. So they're afraid to rock the boat, one thing. But they do tend to talk in circles without ever coming to a point of conclusion that allows them to take action. And I think if they don't take action, they're colluding in their own continuation of the status quo. And the status quo is certainly, certainly not, if I were an artist, certainly not acceptable.
[00:00:56 - 00:02:29] Claude Schryer
Episode 213. My conversation with writer, dance, historian, and arts policy consultant Max Wyman, who I knew when he was on the board of the Canada Council in the early 2000s. I met with Max on March 18, 2025, at his home in Lyons Bay, British Columbia, which sits on the unceded traditional territory of the Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), Səl̓ílwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), and xʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam) Nations. Max is the author of numerous books, including The Compassionate Imagination: How the Arts Are Central to a Functioning Democracy., which he will talk about in this episode. He’ll also talk about quite a provocative article, published on February 21, 2025 in The Tyee called To Save the Arts, Blow Up the Old Ways, which caught my attention, in part because it reminded of my letter to the arts community about the ecological crisis, from October 2024. Both of our postings ask what I think are fair but hard questions - in difficult times - about the future of the art sector and of Canadian culture writ large. So it's all very timely. I asked Max to stick his neck out and elaborate his vision and proposed actions, which he did with finesse and gusto.
[00:02:30 - 00:06:02] Max Wyman
I understand their despair. I understand the fragmentation. But I do believe that they need to be bold. They need to be bolder than they are and take action. I was struck by one of the quotes in your article about how you have reshaped your podcast (a conscient rethink) and you talked about the quote was this:
I'm all for that. I think we've talked long enough and we need to take action. And the first thing I think that the cultural community in Canada should do is get behind the notion of a Canadian identity that can be brandished in the face of the attacks that are being leveled at it. Specifically, I'm going to suggest a propose that the creative community in the immediate short term reinforces Canadian identity and cultural sovereignty, its position as a bastion of freedom, all the things we value about Canada. By putting Canada's creative force on display all at once, establishing and upcoming established and upcoming art artists to, to reinforce Canadian pride, Canadian identity, Canadian sense of who we are. And when I talk about putting it on display, I mean a national festival of theater and galleries and dance and the music. But let's deluge our population, the people of Canada, with the riches that they own and show people that there is an immense resource of inspiration and encouragement and solace that we have right here that makes us who we are. I think that's an immediate response we can take to this really existential threat we're facing from the south. We need every, every resource in our, in our quiver to assert ourselves as Canada. And this is more, this is precisely the time when we can do that. You know, we've seen the emergence of this by Canadian movement. This can reinforce that. Be Canadian, be proud of being Canadian. Look at all this imaginative, rich riches that we have. Celebrate them and make them available to everybody. Show. Show the Canadian people that this is something worth, that we have a, an identity worth fighting for, a cultural identity. It is expressed in many, many ways. It would be an immense gift to the people of Canada and it would also reinforce the value of the art in our present day society. Because we're not, I think we are not as aware as we should be as Canadians of the values that the arts bring to us. That would be my first immediate short-term suggestion for how the arts can respond to this crisis.
[00:06:02 - 00:06:29] Claude Schryer
Well, you wrote an article called To Save the Arts Blow up the Old Ways. It's time to publicly reimagine what the sector can really do and why it matters. This was on February 21st. Today is May 18th. We don't know what the future will bring, but there's a short-term game, if you want to call it, of fighting the US threat. But there's also the longer-term reinvention and reimagining of Canadian culture which you've been writing about for years.
[00:06:29 - 00:09:56] Max Wyman
Yeah, we have to. When I say reimagining Canadian culture, I think we need to recognize that art and culture isn't just a matter of. Of books and plays and all the things I've just been talking about which we need, which are the tangible form of it. But it's about fostering a sense of caring, of understanding, of embracing, of recognizing that we are together as a people. That's our cultural identity. Of course, we're all very different. There are many strands of identity in this. But we. We are a unification, a unified body of human beings. And that has to be recognized that. That ultimately what the artist is. Is doing, it seems to me, is to try to make contact with a human individual in ways that are affirming and embracing and enlarging. Not to teach, but to. To share and to grow together. People want to be understood. They want to be valued. We live in a system where people are not valued. They're. They're. They're. They're helpless. They feel helpless. They feel misunderstood. I mean, look, Taylor Swift has built a religion without a God. It's got. It's got all the vestments, it's got all the ritual, all the emotional attachment, the spiritual attachment, the cosplay. But when you ask your followers, what attracts them is the songs, because they have meaning in their lives, because they make them feel understood and empowered. And I think that that is, I think, part of the secret of what the arts and culture, Arts and culture can do, what the sector can do, is to let people know that they're together. Not to teach them, not to exploit them, but to share that joy of being. I mean, joy is right at the center of what we want. I mean, what's one of the most popular pieces of music of all time? Ode to joy by Beethoven. We sing Hallelujah. Whether it's Handel or Leonard Cohen, we want joy. And the arts and culture help to celebrate joy. It also brings us. Brings us together and lets us think about different ways of being in a way that doesn't challenge us. I called my latest book the Compassionate Imagination because I believe that the arts provide a level meeting ground where we can come together not as enemies. We're so polarized. We are left or right. We are pro or con. Dualities don't work anymore. The arts are a place where you can come together and see things in their complexity and share them without threat. It's a safe central ground where you can exchange ideas, where you can develop an understanding of other people. And from that, a warmth towards other people, an empathy that is so badly lacking, so much at the root of what our problems are right now.
[00:09:57 - 00:10:15] Claude Schryer
As A race and understanding some of the root causes of what got us into the climate emergency and other crises that we're living through. The arts are part of it. They're complicit to a certain extent, but they're also what can help us go through it, through the emotions, through the blockages. I really believe in the power of the arts.
[00:10:15 - 00:12:11] Max Wyman
Oh, yeah. And also what engaging with art does is release your imagination. You suddenly realize that, you know, there are things you're going to think about, things you can explore as a possibility that weren't there, that the arts will present you with. What about this? And so suddenly people stop being locked into formulaic responses to situations and say, well, maybe that's. That's a different way of thinking, different way of saying things. Maybe that person has a point. And from that, gradually you move toward an understanding, an empathy, a compassion. So when I call the book the Compassionate Imagination, it's uniting those two ideas of empathy, of human understanding, human embrace, and using the imagination to see what other possibilities exist. And that really relates to the notion of the value of the arts and culture in these times as tools for policy making. You know, Mark Carney wrote about the need for a new set of values if we're going to really make economics work. A very interesting idea from him that we as a society don't have not articulated sufficiently the kind of values that will allow us to build an economy that is fair and just and equal and all of that. I think that by bringing the cultural community, the artists, into policy making as advice, not just as advisors, as participants, is a way to enlarge that vision and perhaps redirect those values, develop the kind of values that he's talking about. Where we develop, we have a sane and level and equal society with people, where people have opportunity.
[00:12:11 - 00:12:23] Claude Schryer
Now we're almost done our 15 minutes max. Believe it or not. There's so much more to say. But you've written books, you've written articles. We're going to move to action. But I know you have a couple more things you want to say.
[00:12:23 - 00:13:59] Max Wyman
Well, no, you brought up the environment. And we cannot divorce ourselves from the environment that we're part of the natural world, we're always interfering with it. We. But the ecosystem is more than us. And I think that the responses to that on the part of the. The arts and cultural community have to involve everything. The environment, yes, but social justice, it's all woven together. There's an entanglement, to use physical. A physician, physics, profs, language, the entanglement Is immense. Environmental action, yes, but social justice at the same time. We have to balance these things out. Yes, I think it's necessary to. To the artists engage with the environmental question because it is an existential issue, one of them. What we cannot have is a bad lecturing art. Nettie Wilde, the documentary maker, says, you know, good art doesn't point fingers. And we have to have art that recognizes that our responsibility to the environment is part of our responsibility to the world in general, to society in general, to our neighbors. It's that love of the other person, that regard for the other individual that need to embrace that I think is at the heart of making art and sharing art. And if we can get that established more clearly, I think we'll get a far wider social understanding of what art can do for us.
[00:14:00 - 00:14:07] Claude Schryer
So what would you. What advice do you have for artists and culture workers at this time of action? Points things that are concrete and relevant.
[00:14:07 - 00:14:59] Max Wyman
Well, first of all, obviously, I think I like this idea of a national display at every level. You know, in a village hall where communities can come together and share and realize that they're part of it too. The key to it is that people have to be shown that it belongs to them and that there's so much that they can get from it. And I think that's where artists have to get out there and do it. Not say, here, I've got something for you, but what can I give you? What can I give you Think the arts and culture are central to who we are as a nation, who we are as people, who we are as individuals. And they give us more than anything else does the thing that we all need, which is a sense of belonging, a sense of being understood and a voice.